In this episode, General Robert B. Brown, retired four-star general and current President & CEO of the Association of the United States Army, shares highlights from his extraordinary 38-year military career. A 1981 West Point graduate, General Brown led from platoon to the Indo-Pacific’s largest Army Service Component Command and deployed to key missions in Haiti, Bosnia, and Iraq. He discusses the importance of mentorship, building cohesive teams, and the Army’s evolving role in global security.
In this episode of the West Point Association of Graduates Broadcast Network, host Ian Faison sits down with General Robert B. Brown, retired four-star general and current President & CEO of the Association of the United States Army (AUSA). General Brown shares his inspiring journey to West Point, where he was recruited by legendary coach Mike Krzyzewski, and delves into his experiences in leadership and service. His stories highlight the impact of mentorship, the complexities of leading both military and civilian teams, and his efforts to build cohesive, mission-driven organizations.
With 38 years in the U.S. Army, General Robert B. Brown, a retired four-star general, led from the platoon level to the largest Army Service Component Command in the Indo-Pacific Region, where he commanded 106,000 Soldiers as the Commanding General of the U.S. Army Pacific. A 1981 graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, General Brown’s service took him worldwide, with deployments in Haiti, Bosnia, and Iraq. Beyond field commands, he held key roles in U.S. Army Europe, the Pentagon, and the U.S. Indo-Pacific Command. General Brown holds advanced degrees in education and national security and now serves as President & CEO of the Association of the United States Army, continuing his commitment to the military community.
General Brown also discusses AUSA's mission to educate, connect, and support the Army community, emphasizing the importance of telling the Army’s story and fostering a strong connection between the military and the American public. Through his leadership at AUSA, he continues to champion selfless service and the role of the Army in safeguarding national and global stability.
Key Quote:
“Oftentimes, when you're changing, you're fighting. The tradition, you're fighting the people that don't really want to change and you've just got to work it extremely hard. You have to have a strategy. How are you going to get there? What's the vision? You have to be passionate about it. You have to build champions of that and work it. And when it's the right thing to do, it's very, very difficult. And it takes a ton of effort, a ton of energy, but I will tell you, it is worth it when you succeed, and the Army must have it, they must have leaders that are willing to go out and make change where it's needed at the strategic level for certain, and it's the toughest, because it's always the toughest problems.”
-General Robert B. Brown
(00:26) Journey to West Point
(08:17) Transition to AUSA
(12:04) Challenges and Mentorship in the Army
(23:36) Balancing Personal and Professional Lives
(36:01) Leading Change in the Army
(42:40) Reflecting on Legacy and Future Goals
Connect with GEN Robert B. Brown
0:00:01.4 Announcer: Some exciting news for our friends at the West Point Association of Graduates, AUSA, also known as the Association of the United States Army is now an official association partner with WPAOG. This partnership gives West Point graduates automatic basic membership to the US Army's Professional Association, bringing access to a wealth of new benefits through AUSA West Point Grads can tap into powerful professional networks, participate in exclusive events both nationally and locally, and access resources that support their career journey. This partnership showcases our shared commitment to supporting future army leaders.
0:00:47.9 Announcer: Welcome to the WPAOG podcast. This week we're honored to welcome General Robert B. Brown, a distinguished military leader with a remarkable 38 year career in the US Army. From platoon leader to commanding general of the US Army Pacific, General Brown has led at every level, including deployments to Haiti, Bosnia, and Iraq. A 1981 West Point graduate. He's held pivotal roles in the Pentagon, US Army Europe, and the US Indo-Pacific Command, now serving as the president and CEO of the Association of the United States Army. The US Army's Professional Association, General Brown continues to shape the future of army leadership and community. Join us as we explore his legacy of service and insights from a lifetime of command. Please enjoy this episode with guest hosts, Ian Faison.
0:01:50.7 Ian Faison: Welcome to the West Point AOG broadcast network. I'm Ian Faison, CEO of Casing Studios here playing a little guest host to speak with the amazing General Robert B. Brown. Sir, how are you?
0:02:04.1 General Robert B. Brown: I'm doing great. I don't know about that amazing though. Thanks. I appreciate it. Yeah.
0:02:09.2 Ian Faison: Amazing on the basketball court, I can tell you that much.
0:02:11.7 General Robert B. Brown: You get better as you get older. There's no question. The stories get better and better. No doubt.
0:02:17.8 Ian Faison: So speaking of that, what led you to West Point in the first place?
0:02:21.2 General Robert B. Brown: I always find it fascinating because there's some folks, they knew they wanted to be in the military since they were a little kid, or different family tradition or whatever. But folks go to West Point and join the Army for all different reasons. So as you mentioned, I was a pretty decent basketball player. I lived my last three years of high school in the state of Michigan. And there was a guy, there was a senior same time as me named Ervin Magic Johnson. You may have heard of him. And he was a pretty good player. I remember my father would be... You know how parents are with their kids.
0:02:53.4 General Robert B. Brown: Like he's getting all the publicity and I'm like, Dad, he's pretty good. But I was pretty good, too. Anyway, Magic Johnson was going to Michigan State University, and so I did not wanna go there. I wanted some playing time, but I got a full ride basketball scholarship to a place called University of Michigan, and that was gonna be pretty good. My brother and sister had gone there but then a guy named Coach K, coach Mike Krzyzewski, the head coach at West Point at the time, came by my house to recruit me this place called West Point.
0:03:22.1 General Robert B. Brown: I didn't even know what it was, to be quite honest. And my father was a Marine in the Korean War, and his eyes lit up. For some reason, he hated Annapolis, thank goodness I would... But he loved West Point, and then Coach K was so persuasive. I said, Okay, I'll go visit. And I fell in love with the idea of selfless service and just seeing. I remember there was a poster, it's probably still there today, but it had like Eisenhower, pat and MacArthur, Bradley. And it said at West Point, much of the history we teach was made by those we taught. And I thought, Oh, that's really cool. And just the idea of service and the team was so close. To me it was a no brainer. So I told Michigan no, and the whole coaching staff came to my house and they're like... This is 1977, by the way.
0:04:09.3 General Robert B. Brown: So they're like, You're gonna be in the Army, are you crazy? And I said, Hey, I can serve my country. I'll have a job. I'll be proud of what I'm doing, and on and on. And pretty much they left empty handed and I ended up at West Point and really was gonna get out and coach. I wasn't gonna stay, had no intention of staying in the army and ended up, who knows, ended up staying 38 years. So you never know. So that's how I ended up at West Point, and I'm really grateful to Coach K. Would've never happened without him and Main's close mentor and friend, and just so very fortunate. So that's my story. Everybody's got a different one, but I think it's pretty cool to hear why you came in and how.
0:04:54.4 Ian Faison: One of my favorite Coach K stories is he tells a story about when he was at West Point and playing for Coach Knight.
0:04:58.0 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:04:58.3 Ian Faison: And they would always do this draw every day. And then he went to be an assistant coach for him. I think it might've been Indiana, I'm not sure.
0:05:07.6 General Robert B. Brown: It was Indiana. University of Indiana. The year they were undefeated.
0:05:11.4 Ian Faison: Yeah, that's right. Exactly.
0:05:11.5 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:05:13.4 Ian Faison: And there was some group. They had some great player on that team, and he was like, Hey coach we used to do this drill every day at West Point, for the point guards, we do this every single day. You don't even do that here. And he looked at Coach K, he's like, Well, you're not that guy. He's like, You had to do the drill. He doesn't have to.
[laughter]
0:05:32.4 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah, that's it. He did those drills with us by the way, later as head coach. And I broke my nose like three times. Some of those Bobby Knight drills that Coach K took. So that's funny though, I could see Bobby Knight, he was a real character. I could see him saying that to Coach K, no doubt about it.
0:05:51.9 Ian Faison: What was it like? Early days of him being a coach, what was it like playing for him?
0:05:55.9 General Robert B. Brown: It was incredible. I didn't realize at the time how much I was learning. I learned from him how to build a team. And I used it every unit from platoon through Core, or the largest Army service component Command, 126,000 in the Army. I used the principles I learned from Coach K about building a team. He was tough on me. He was very tough. To this day, he still gives me crap, 'cause I was an offense. I was a shooting guard. I wasn't crazy about defense, I'll be honest and I used to hear defensive players drive Volkswagen and offensive players, Ferraris and it's basketball not Defend Ball...
0:06:38.4 General Robert B. Brown: Anyway, I wasn't great on defense. In fact, one time we're playing, it was Yale and I hit a shot to win the game and up in the locker room and coach is coming up and I'm thinking, Okay he is gonna say, a great job Bob you won the game. No. He said, Hey, how about playing some defense now? And I thought, Geez, he could've at least said good shot. You know what I mean? But today he... Recently, he introduced me at an event we were both speaking at, and he introduced me and he said... He goes, I get very nervous that Bob was responsible help with the defense of our nation because he never played any defense when he played for me, so...
[laughter]
0:07:12.2 General Robert B. Brown: He still gives me crap about that. But he was amazing, obviously amazing. At the time, what I have thought he was gonna go on, become the winningest coach of all time. We knew he was great. We knew he was amazing. We loved the guy. But it's pretty incredible and I don't know that we would've predicted that, but I can see why he was. 'Cause he's just an amazing leader and inspirational leader and amazing person. Yeah.
0:07:38.5 Ian Faison: I think there's a lot of interesting stuff there too just in terms of organizational dynamics. Like you're in a basketball coach or really any sport, you have such a small amount of people, it's never more than a platoon like ever, right?
0:07:49.8 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:07:49.9 Ian Faison: Even the biggest sports team is not gonna be 40 people, right?
0:07:52.0 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:07:55.6 Ian Faison: You're managing such a small amount of people and that's critical to leadership. You manage a small amount of people for, even if you're managing, like you said 100,000 people, your core group of people that you're interacting on a day-to-day basis is still probably pretty small.
0:08:13.6 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah. He is the most amazing leader I've ever seen, and I've seen some amazing leaders in the military, in the army and elsewhere. He's the most amazing I've seen at understanding people and how to motivate individuals. Not only how to build a team, about the keys to building a team, but then also how to really motivate different individuals. Like when he was selected to coach the men's basketball Olympic team, was all NBA superstars. And everybody said, Oh, this college coach, how's he gonna do that? There's no way. And I'm telling you, he did it brilliantly. In fact, his first meeting with the team, I was proud. He asked me to speak, and I brought in Wounded Warriors and Scotty Smiley, oh one Grad had lost his eyes in a suicide bomber.
0:09:02.6 General Robert B. Brown: He was in my Stryker Brigade, amazing human being and hero, Scotty, and several other wounded heroes. And we spoke about selfless service to these NBA players. And honestly, it changed my... I always thought, these guys are all just big egos, but I'll tell you what, they listened and respected. They were all crying and supporting the Wounded Warriors. In fact, later when they would make a great play, they'd salute afterwards, and it was honor of the Wounded Warriors.
0:09:28.9 General Robert B. Brown: And so this was Coach K instilling in them. He was telling them, Hey, this is more than basketball. You're representing your country. And I know it's a tough parallel of combat and sports, but the selfless service part certainly you're representing your country and you're proud of that, and in the army and we represent our nation. It was amazing. He had them, he understood them, and of course won three gold medals as the coach and didn't lose. I think they lost one preliminary game against Greece, which taught him a lot, but didn't lose any in the Olympics. Just amazing. And those guys would follow him anywhere. One of those superstars, I guarantee you.
0:10:07.6 Ian Faison: And you know, speaking of selfless service, you fast forward to today. You are the present CEO of AUSA. Can you share a little bit more about that role and why you stepped in and wanted to do this?
0:10:18.2 General Robert B. Brown: Sure. Thanks for asking. Really proud, the association of the United States Army's been the Army's Premier Association formed by the Army 74 years ago, 1950. And the Army realized they needed someone to help educate both within the army, educate and then outside the Army, educate folks on the Army. We're an educational nonprofit, so we do a leadership development education, we educate the public on the Army's role. They needed someone to help connect the army with America and connect the army with industry that's so important for the Army. Can't do anything without, to the professionals in industry to get us the best equipment in the world and technology in the world. And then to inform as well. Inform folks on why we have an army, what the army needs, et cetera. So I'm really proud every single day we're helping soldiers and families and making a huge difference for the army.
0:11:15.0 General Robert B. Brown: It's mostly, we're again a nonprofit, but we have about 5000 volunteers and 122 chapters across the United States, Europe, and the Pacific newest chapter in Guam. And we have chapters all over Europe as well, and the Pacific government, Japan, Korean, and all over the United States. So there's about 5000 volunteers in those chapters. And every single day they're helping active duty, National Guard and Reserve Soldiers and making a difference out there. And it's just a real honor to be able to be a part of the organization. Unfortunately people just don't hear enough about what the army does in a critical role. We had an army before we had a nation. And I would argue we wouldn't have a nation if we didn't have an army in 1775 coming up on 250 years of the Army next year 249 for our nation.
0:12:06.9 General Robert B. Brown: And so that army is just absolutely critical, and we're here to support them 110%. So I'm really proud to do that. And they select a retired four star to do that since the beginning. Actually, the first president, CEO was the vice chief of staff, the number two active duty in the army. And then they realized, Wait a minute, the lawyers got involved, so that probably needs to be a retired guy. Not active duty. So...
0:12:29.1 Ian Faison: The switched it?
0:12:30.9 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah, and we have 1.7 million members, which is pretty awesome. One of the largest nonprofit in the military service organization. MSO Veteran Service Organization. It's not the largest certainly, right up there is one of them. Yeah.
0:12:46.3 Ian Faison: And if anyone listening wants to support in any way or tap in or get involved, How could they do that?
0:12:52.3 General Robert B. Brown: AUSA.org. Go to AUSA.org and you'll see ways to get involved in a chapter. You can look up a chapter near you. AUSA chapter. There's probably one very close to where you're at, unless you're in some real remote location. But we have them in Alaska and as I mentioned, Guam's pretty remote. We got them in Guam all over the place. Also other ways you can look at other ways to help and support. 'Cause it's just so important now. We tell the Army story so people know what the army does and we support a strong army is what a crazy challenging world we're in right now with really aggressive authoritarian regimes that are challenging the world order and the peace in the world and want it to be swayed in their favor, not for all. So it's a challenging time and I think the best way to... George Washington said, To be prepared for war is the best way to ensure peace.
0:13:52.0 Ian Faison: And zooming out, 38 year career, which, obviously you're still in the fight here and you faced a lot of different stuff over the years. Is there any significant challenge that stands out to you that you dealt with and overcame?
0:14:08.2 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah. When you look at the most... Of course you're challenged almost every day. There's challenges and it's fortunately the Army's the greatest team in the world, and you're with such talented people and with really... The thing as you know, being a graduate yourself, there's nothing like selfless service and the mission. And so that's phenomenal. But I'd say the most challenging thing by far was the loss, my first time and every time. A loss of a soldier in combat that's in your command, it's different. Sadly and tragically I lost soldiers in peace time in a car accident or something happens and it's terrible, but there's nothing as unbelievably difficult as losing a soldier in combat. You've just ordered them to go do something to help in the defense of our nation.
0:14:57.3 General Robert B. Brown: And when you lose a soldier, it's very difficult. And I always felt like from our day at West Point for me in 1977 through 38 years, the Army did a wonderful job preparing me as a leader. Incredible leader development, and prepared me for just about everything I could ever imagine. I don't think they prepared me enough for the loss of a soldier, but I don't think they could have. It's how do you train realistically as you can, but you just can't. And I remember the first soldier, I was at the memorial in Iraq and I literally, I felt like I was having a heart attack.
0:15:31.8 Ian Faison: Yeah.
0:15:32.4 General Robert B. Brown: Like the pain. It was just this pain. And I see... I'm with these bravest men, women I've ever served with and we're just hugging each other and crying like babies, and it's just a tough thing... I think the thing that gets you through it is before you deploy, you better be doing the best possible toughest most demanding training you possibly can. And my criteria was always to be able to look the parents in the eye and say, Hey, I've done everything I can do for your son or daughter. And that doesn't make it any easier. But I think you can't live with yourself if feel that way.
0:16:10.4 General Robert B. Brown: Having a daughter who's a lieutenant colonel deployed several times myself, I kind of expected that from the folks she worked for, that Hey, you trusted confidence that they've done all they can possibly do. And then you also have to establish a foundational support network before there's a loss and a crisis and who you can go to and talk to 'cause you're human being. Everybody needs that support when you're in a tough situation like that. So, I think that's the most challenging.
0:16:45.6 Ian Faison: You spoke about the importance of preparation and the army preparing and you sort of preparing yourself and preparing your family. One of the pieces there is about mentorship and finding mentors and finding other people so you don't have to remake the same mistakes that others have made.
0:16:49.9 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:17:00.0 Ian Faison: How did you think about mentorship and preparing your mind?
0:17:06.8 General Robert B. Brown: I don't think there's a successful leader in any field. The army, business, sports. Who doesn't have a mentor. I think mentorship is critical. And I think successful people... You realize that, as you mentioned, you can get a lifetime of lessons from this individual and it has to be the right person. You can't be assigned a mentor... But I was very fortunate to have amazing leaders starting with Coach K, but then, leaders like General George Casey was a major in my first unit and watching him and then being mentored by him and later General Ronald Griffith, who was just a vice chief of staff in the army, an amazing leader. I learned so much from him. And General Gordon Sullivan, he used to have the job I have now at AUSA and was former chief of staff in the Army.
0:17:54.5 General Robert B. Brown: You need them to learn those experiences to run things by them. And in those tough times. That's another support network to be able to get ahold of them. And they'll give you that wisdom that you need to be able to handle the tough situations and what they did to work through it and how you... It's just key, again I would be very surprised and just about any field out there, if someone said, Well, I did it all on my own. I didn't have a mentor. That'd be the rare exception. I would say.
0:18:27.8 Ian Faison: You mentioned the impact of... You had Coach K as this early coach and these all these other mentors. How do you keep track of your leadership style or building that over time and your philosophy?
0:18:42.0 General Robert B. Brown: That's a great question. And you know, I think, you know, certainly we do a great job preparing future leaders in the Army. Whether it's a non-commissioned officer or an officer through schools and courses they take and leadership courses. And you're starting to form it. And I think when you're a young leader, you're looking for that... Oftentimes you're looking for that famous leader that you're like, Oh hey I'm kinda Like Omar Bradley, or I'm kinda like Patton, whatever it is, you're looking and that's not really, and you're trying, but I think what you learn eventually is you have to be yourself. And you have to be genuine and you have to be, no one does you better than you, right? And...
0:19:24.0 Ian Faison: Right.
0:19:25.5 General Robert B. Brown: So you can't pretend to be someone else. But certainly that being yourself is built from those mentors and from the leadership lessons and the study of leadership and reading autobiography about great leaders and you pick up a lot, and I picked up the most from working for great leaders.
0:19:40.2 Ian Faison: Yeah.
0:19:40.3 General Robert B. Brown: And for example, general Griffith. I mentioned humility. I got to see him. He could talk to someone he just met on the side of the street or a private or the president and he was the same leader and the same humble individual. Humility with confidence, I would say. Not humiliated with confidence. And then you observe folks, like I mentioned General Casey and General Carter Ham was another mentor. And those guys, they show you care how much they care, they love their subordinates. It becomes this incredible care that it builds a trust in an organisation. And you see that. And so all those as you're capturing this and learning and you grow as a leader, you're constantly growing. I think if anybody that says, "Well, I've got it. I've got leadership down a 100% where I need to be." They probably need to stop leading and go do something else.
0:20:35.1 General Robert B. Brown: 'Cause you're always gonna have strengths and weaknesses as a leader and you're always gonna try to reinforce those strengths and improve those weaknesses. And so you're constantly learning. And I was very fortunate, as I said, to have great leaders. I was able to work for that I learned from, and then multiple experiences of, I think I was very fortunate 10 years in a row as a general in command from two star, three star and four star level right in a row. I never had to go be staff time in the Pentagon or anything like that. So I was very happy about that in command and loved being in command and learned, continued to learn up to the last day to try to improve as a leader.
0:21:16.3 Ian Faison: Yeah, it's funny, I found obviously West Point is so good at giving me all of the foundational levels of leadership and obviously giving you all these different leadership experiences along the way, leading yourself and leading one person and two people and five and 10 and whatever. And then in the military you have this rank structure that lends to that. But there's also these organizational dynamics and I was telling this one of Brigade S1, and you have to have influence and you have to support the commander and you have to support all those things. But in the civilian world, there's some of that, but it's so much more fluid. And people, you have to connect to them personally on a much different way because the motivations that they have are often extremely complex.
0:22:11.9 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:22:12.1 Ian Faison: Like in the military, the motivations, it's a little bit more black and white.
0:22:17.0 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:22:17.6 Ian Faison: You know where you are. You know what your job is gonna be. Whereas in the civilian world, it's just, you have... They could wanna do this. They could wanna change their careers. There's a million different things they could wanna do.
0:22:31.1 General Robert B. Brown: Right.
0:22:31.6 Ian Faison: Oh, they just had a baby. They just wanna spend more time with their baby or they don't wanna do... So I've found that having your teams most of all know that you actually care about them and that you understand them for who they are rather than just like the task that they're trying to do has been...
0:22:47.9 General Robert B. Brown: Yes.
0:22:48.4 Ian Faison: A really a guiding light that I learned from West Point.
0:22:51.9 General Robert B. Brown: Well, there's no doubt. I'll give you a story. You made a great point. West Point does an amazing job, as does ROTC and Officer Candidate School of preparing our leaders, officers and the NCO schools do a great job. But, So I'm a Plebe, a Beast Barracks, and I think it's important, learn to be led. That you got to... And my first squad leader used a very almost patent style, arrogant. And I remember one time I did something wrong, I don't remember what it was, and he's like, he said, "Brown, you're making me look bad." And I'm thinking to myself, I don't give a shit if you look bad, you know what I mean? I'm trying to survive here.
0:23:33.4 Ian Faison: Yeah.
0:23:34.3 General Robert B. Brown: I was struggling and I wasn't ready for all the military stuff and I don't care if you look bad. Give me a break. Well, my next squad leader, second detail, you knew he cared and he motivated. He was an inspirational leader and you didn't wanna make him look bad. I'd feel terrible if I made him look bad. And it was the difference of, one I knew really cared about me. The first guy probably cared, but he certainly didn't show it and you didn't know it. And the second guy, I knew it for sure, and I took that lesson from Plebe year. And you start, it matters. It is a simple thing like that. Everybody is, from the time we're born, we're evaluating those that lead us, our coaches, our teachers.
0:24:16.2 Ian Faison: Yeah.
0:24:16.8 General Robert B. Brown: And if you think back to the best leader you had when you were growing up, it's usually not the smartest person, the best looking, the whatever. It's the one you knew cared about you and the team instead of themselves or making themselves... The minute you thought it was to make them look good, they weren't a good leader. You didn't care about them. But the ones that truly cared, they were the ones you respect the most. And so, yeah, it's a great point. And those complexities are there in civilian world and the military, I would argue, although in the military, a little more regimen of what they're gonna do, but they have all the same complications in life that you mentioned, all...
0:24:54.2 Ian Faison: Yeah.
0:24:54.6 General Robert B. Brown: Not sure what job they're gonna go to. Not sure if they're gonna stay or not. Deploying, children, all the things that come into life. And so knowing them as people and really knowing them well and showing you care, that's essential. That's critical at every level.
0:25:09.3 Ian Faison: And the reason why I say it's a little bit more challenging in the civilian world, and not to say that it's... Yeah, I think they're both extremely challenging. The thing about the civilian world, I think that's a little different is with your soldiers, you can go do a barracks check.
0:25:23.7 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:25:25.4 Ian Faison: You're gonna have like an FRG or something like that. You're gonna have a tether to their personal life because...
0:25:30.9 General Robert B. Brown: You're with them more. You can find out more. Whereas yeah, you're absolutely right. And the civilian sector, it's private. You're not gonna dig into stuff that much. You don't know what's affecting them at home, maybe. Yeah, exactly. And I agree with you. Yeah.
0:25:43.1 Ian Faison: And I think that, even as strong as you can have a mission for your organisation and a purpose for your organisation, for being, I'm a CEO of a 2020-ish person company, and I think that you have people working all over the world. It's like remote.
0:26:00.9 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:26:01.3 Ian Faison: It's this sort of different thing. But I think that digging into the point there of knowing them and knowing what they're looking at and what they're trying to do and what they're trying to accomplish and what matters to them and all of that, and showing that you care. And the other side of that is a belief that they can be, one of the most challenging things for me in the civilian world is that you can have anyone on your team in the whole world, right?
0:26:27.2 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:26:30.9 Ian Faison: You could. I mean, you could try at least, right?
0:26:31.0 General Robert B. Brown: Right.
0:26:31.3 Ian Faison: Whereas in the military, it's like you just got who you got, right?
0:26:34.4 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah. It's true.
0:26:34.6 Ian Faison: It's like who was, this is your squad, right?
0:26:36.6 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:26:37.6 Ian Faison: Those are your people. This is your platoon, whatever. And so the military, to me, what helped me a lot is I was really good at making people better and helping them to get better and training them and figuring out those sort of things. Whereas I got in the civilian world, I'm like, oh, I can make people, once we got them on the team, I can help them get better. But it's like, how the heck do I pick the people?
0:27:00.6 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah, that's a great point...
0:27:00.7 Ian Faison: Which are the right people to get there.
0:27:01.6 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah, it's a point. And mentorship is the most rewarding thing. We didn't talk that. I mean, it's much more rewarding to really mentor and help develop someone and you see them succeed. That's a greater feeling than you'll ever have about anything you ever do yourself. It's an amazing feeling and it's critical. You're absolutely right, yeah.
0:27:22.2 Ian Faison: The other thing that I think I've found that's pretty challenging, and I'm curious in your transition, is the idea of credit and taking credit for things. In the military, I mean, there's so much about the team and about building the team.
0:27:38.7 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:27:38.8 Ian Faison: But in the civilian world, you also, part of it is you have to build your individual, your individuality, right? People jump from company to company and do all these sort of things, so you have to build yourself up too. And I just find that incredibly challenging to build yourself and to show all the work that the team is doing. 'cause they, it's so tightly knit, but it's just, I think it's tough for military people to promote themselves at all. In general.
0:28:05.1 General Robert B. Brown: I think yes, especially Army, it's just not our culture. It's one of the challenges that AUSA we help out with is the Army is not great at telling their story. It's like in our cultures, do a tough mission and then go on to the next mission. Don't sit there and brag about it. Whereas, and I'm gonna say my dad was a Marine, so I can say this, Marines are great at telling their story.
0:28:25.5 Ian Faison: Yeah.
0:28:26.6 General Robert B. Brown: Because they've always been paranoid. They're small and they've always been paranoid, and so they really ingrained in them, tell what you did, and you'll have 50 Marines on a mission and 5,000 Army, and the Marines will get all the credit. 'Cause, they tell their story better.
0:28:40.9 Ian Faison: Yeah.
0:28:42.2 General Robert B. Brown: So we definitely have to get better at that. You're absolutely right. I mean, it's great. Humility's great and all that. People need to know what you've done. But I still think the principle of give the credit and take the blame for the leader, give your subordinates the credit and you take the blame. I still think that works in the civilian world, certainly not in every company. And I've had I was looking at what I wanted to do, and I was looking at some jobs that like, well, for this job you really got to promote yourself. It's got to be all about you get out there on social media. And I'm like, well, that's not the job for me. No, thank you.
0:29:16.3 Ian Faison: Yeah.
0:29:16.5 General Robert B. Brown: I kind of consider myself a humble leader. I want to be an inspirational leader. I don't want it to be about me, but it's out there. But I do think you can find companies that will recognise a leader that gives the subordinates the credit and takes the blame when things go poorly and do better. I think a lot of companies understand that's really powerful leadership and it works. But I agree with you. Not all companies, that's for sure. Not all fields either. So.
0:29:39.6 Ian Faison: You talked a little bit about sort of finding your own voice versus just sort of copying other people. I totally agree, and I have the same exact, my beast was the same thing for me, where my first leader versus my second leader and all that stuff. So funny how this stuff works almost like it's by design.
0:29:58.1 General Robert B. Brown: Probably was. We didn't know.
0:30:00.1 Ian Faison: Exactly right. Be way harder on the first group. But yeah, so I'm curious, as you think about your time in the military and being an individual and figuring out who General Bob Brown was or before then lieutenant, a captain and all that stuff, I found that the people who could maintain their individualism to make their own decisions, to be strategic and tactical, and to think outside the box and do those things, that a lot of times those people were the people who rose in the ranks and were able to do that. And it's a little bit counterintuitive, right? So I'm just curious, were there any times in your military career where you pushed against the grain or you really wanted to do something that was not status quo?
0:30:45.8 General Robert B. Brown: Oh my goodness. How many times? No. We don't have enough time. Seriously. I would say, I talked to groups about this a lot in the leadership sessions. I'd say in 38 years, there were about 15 times I was almost relieved for trying to do, no, seriously, for trying to do the right thing and pushing back, trying to do the right thing when I knew it was the right thing. And in a few cases it was something had gone wrong and I took the blame and stand in front of the division. I was a battalion commander, stand in front of the division commander with a lawyer there and saying, Hey, sir, don't fire captain so and so, he made a mistake. It's my fault. Fire me if you're gonna fire somebody.
0:31:24.5 General Robert B. Brown: It seemed like a long period of silence. But then finally, Hey, shut up. Sit down Bob. Let's talk about this. And I was able to save that young leader's job because they weren't trying to do anything wrong. Stuff happens every now and then and you're trying to do the right thing. So I think it's really important that you're absolutely right on you get to a point as a leader, there's no question in all those situations. Some I thought, that's it. I'm done. And you need to look in the mirror and you got to live with yourself. And I never promise you, I never thought in a million years I'd be a general, never did anything to be a general. And I used to, when I was commanding combined Arm centre, Leavenworth and CGSC's in that span of control there, and we would talk to the new command general staff college classes.
0:32:10.8 General Robert B. Brown: And it was always the spouses, not the majors, but the spouses would come up. I was a three star at the time, and my wife and I would be there and they'd come up and say, what does it take to be a general? And I said, well, if your husband or wife is trying to be a general, they won't be one because you've gotta do what's right for the soldier, what's right for the unit, the army, if you are thinking of, and I knew many leaders that might've been pretty good as like say a battalion commander, pretty good leader. Then he became a brigade commander and he said, oh wow, I'm in a small number now. I might be a general. And they make decisions based on become general though they didn't become a general, they fail. You can't do that. And I never did that, I assure you, but I did.
0:32:57.0 General Robert B. Brown: In those tough decisions, you have to look yourself mirror and say, look, I gotta know that I've done the best I can for the unit, the army, and I don't wanna, if it takes doing less than that or I don't wanna be a general. So I did not think at all. And I had some interesting, I was the second Stryker Brigade commander in the army, but I did the test and evaluation of the whole Stryker concept and had strikers before the first brigade had them so that we could test it and so forth. And we also tested the modular brigade concept, got to do national Training centre and join Readiness training centre, both in command. But in going through all that, I mean we had to be very candid about a whole bunch of stuff wasn't working. Some that folks didn't wanna hear, you had to let them know.
0:33:45.5 General Robert B. Brown: And then some that was working great. You needed to reinforce. And I thought, I made so many people mad in that process. There's no way I'm gonna be a general. And I was fortunate to command almost for four years at brigade, 'cause I got extended and took them to Iraq and it was an amazing unit. I'm really proud. It was just incredible. And that one, two, five Stryker Brigade combat team. But there were many times that if I'd have bent and looked at, oh, I got to do this to become a general, I wouldn't have done the right thing.
0:34:14.1 General Robert B. Brown: And so that can't be part of the equation. Yes, there are plenty of times you go against the grain. And I would also tell you that when I became a general, I respected individuals that worked for me that did that, that would tell me. It wouldn't just be a yes man or woman. They're gonna tell you what they really think and what they really feel. It's really important. It's key that building that trust and that candour. It's a foundation of any team in any or in any field. Again, I would argue.
0:34:40.9 Ian Faison: That's funny. So I think I was going through Bullock and all that stuff right after, I think I left, right after you took command of the Maneuver Centre in Fort Knox.
0:34:54.1 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah. In 2010 I took the Maneuver Centre.
0:34:56.0 Ian Faison: Yeah.
0:34:57.7 General Robert B. Brown: Yep. And brought Armour down from Fort Knox. Exactly.
0:35:00.3 Ian Faison: Yeah.
0:35:00.4 General Robert B. Brown: I came in 2010. Yep.
0:35:03.2 Ian Faison: I mean. I remember I was lieutenant at the time and a bunch of my buddies, infantry guys. It was a huge deal. There was a lot. I mean that could not have been a super popular decision.
0:35:13.9 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah. It was a challenge. And it was funny because I was told I was going to command a division, which of course every leader wants to go command a division. It was like awesome. But I was later told, well, we needed a team builder to bring Armour down. And so we went again. And the other thing was in Iraq with my Stryker Brigade, when we got to Mosul in northern Iraq, it was a mess. And so we were beefed up from 5,000. We were supposed to be, I had 12,000 soldiers, a whole bunch of extra battalions from 82nd, 25th aviation, et cetera.
0:35:45.2 General Robert B. Brown: And so we were at 12,000 for 10 months. So they sort of told me, Hey, you've already done the division type thing. We need you to bring Armour down and form a team and Maneuver Centre. And that was an incredible, wonderful assignment and amazing experience. And it had leaders, Walt PT and Tom James were both brigadier generals, the Armour Commandant and the Infantry Commandant. And instead of it being friction with each other, when Armour came, they learned from each other and both got better.
0:36:15.7 Ian Faison: Yep.
0:36:15.8 General Robert B. Brown: I mean, it was unbelievable. Both got better from learning from each other and forming that amazing team, the Maneuver Centre. And it was amazing When you think about it, we would send lieutenants, infantry lieutenant perhaps would go right into combat, never even having seen a tank.
0:36:31.3 Ian Faison: Yep.
0:36:31.6 General Robert B. Brown: Or a tanker, never having seen infantry and worked with them. They might get to the unit, go right to combat. But with the Maneuver Centre, of course they worked together and both got better. It was really rewarding experience.
0:36:42.0 Ian Faison: Yeah, I mean I think that part of Army not telling his story, the army not telling their story sort of well enough, which I think is so true. I think there's so many things about the army. My dad was a private in the Army back in the late '50s, and we'd have so many jokes where the army hasn't changed from when...
0:36:57.6 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah.
0:37:00.3 Ian Faison: He was there until I was there. He was...
0:37:00.4 General Robert B. Brown: Hurry up and wait.
0:37:00.8 Ian Faison: Yeah. Exactly.
0:37:01.2 General Robert B. Brown: That hasn't changed. Stand in line. Yeah. Exactly.
0:37:06.4 Ian Faison: You know, he was standing guard on on the Berlin Wall. And you know, I'm standing guard and you know, or whatever. But anywho. But there's so many things that change. And I think the army like really, you know, to use this sort of the tech terms like disrupts itself so often, like there's so many sacred cows that that really get get pulled down. And the Maneuver Center, that's like a great example of that. We're like this. I mean, people were really mad. And, you know, that you know, when like the stuff with the braids back in the day, which is like, yeah, like all these things like and I'm just curious, you know, how do you sort of balance the like the culture and the history of decisions versus doing what you think is right for, you know, the future of the organization or the country?
0:37:52.4 General Robert B. Brown: Yeah, that's another great question, 'cause it's a, change is very challenging. Everybody says they want change. They really don't. And human beings like consistency. They want somebody else to change, not themselves. And the way I describe when you're leading change, there'll be a small group of people you'll have, maybe a handful that really understand the change. What's the right thing to do? Then there'll be a bunch of people on the fence kind of sort of understand, but sort of don't. Then there are a ton of people on the other side of that fence saying, what the hell do you want to change for? You don't know what you're doing. Why would you change? And it might be they're afraid of losing their job. It might be they just don't understand the change and the need for change. And so as you start to change and you see success, you've got to reinforce every little success and that drops people off that fence and then other people up on the fence and successful change by the end.
0:38:48.2 General Robert B. Brown: Everybody's on your side of the fence. It's changed. And nobody remembers who led to change. They all are taking credit for it. That's successful change. And it's hard. And I was involved in that, oh my gosh, I can't tell you, dozens and dozens of times in the Army. Well, you know, I mentioned a Stryker Brigade. That was change. And, you know, modularity was change. A brigade was, I had more than a division had in capabilities. That was change. It was unbelievable. But, you know, getting to a Maneuver center at Benning, we changed, we put the emphasis on the squad. Squad is a decisive formation and nobody had really worked on the squad. I would show this Restrepo, you know, so it shows Afghanistan with a young West Point grad company commander who was in my Stryker Brigade. And he would be on a handheld mic with a map trying to figure out where he was and stuff. And then I'd show a clip from Band of Brothers and World War II in the exact same situation.
0:39:46.5 General Robert B. Brown: I said, and you know, so this is how far we've come. We've done nothing for the squad. It's like accepting, you know, a black and white TV today or a corded phone, for God's sake. You know what I mean? We've got to move it forward. And that got the squad stuff moving. And now it's one of the priorities, soldier lethality. And we've done a ton for the squad. So it was change and it was fighting. Oftentimes when you're changing, you're fighting the tradition. You're fighting the people that don't really want to change and you've just got to work it extremely hard. You have to have a strategy. How are you gonna get there? What's the vision? You have to be passionate about it. You have to build champions of that and work it. And when it's the right thing to do, it's very difficult. And it takes a ton of effort, a ton of energy. But I will tell you, it is worth it when you succeed. And the Army must have it. They must have leaders that are willing to go out and make change where it's needed at the strategic level for certain. It's the toughest 'cause it's always the toughest problems.
0:40:45.3 Ian Faison: I remember the class OS, I mean, I remember sitting there and I was talking about survivors bias and talking about how the people who got to the place where they are going to be the most resistant of change. I was like, well, it worked for me. I'm here. What do you mean?
0:41:01.2 General Robert B. Brown: Exactly.
0:41:01.5 Ian Faison: This is how I learned things. This is how I got to where I am. So how could it possibly be that is wrong 'cause it means that I'm wrong, which is a hard thing to deal with.
0:41:12.4 General Robert B. Brown: No doubt. And sometimes it comes and you have no choice. I mean, it's so overwhelmingly obvious. Other times it might be a judgment call and it's not as obvious. That's when it's more difficult. But I'll give you another example of when I was taking over US Army in the Pacific, China has gotten more aggressive than ever before in history. And it's unbelievable. They have a strategy and it's right out there and publishing by '27, 2027, they want to take Taiwan back. They want to become the greatest military in the world by 2037, by 2047, the greatest nation. And they are dumping tons into defense and then being incredibly aggressive in South China Sea and all over the world. I mean, it's unbelievable. And so it's unbelievable situation. And they, of course, have spent a lot of money on this. If you look at charts pushing back, they studied us in air-land battle when we were successful in, you know, over the years and they looked at what the US does so well. And then they developed a strategy to stop it. Anti-access aerial denial.
0:42:22.5 General Robert B. Brown: Well, the good news is we're not doing that anymore as we, you know, the next air-land battle is multi-domain operations. It's the future. And I got to the Pacific and had the conversation with Indo-PACOM commander that, hey, you know, we can't win with the old strategy. China has developed, you can't get within 3,000 miles of the coast of China with air or maritime assets 'cause they can kill you with a missile and their anti-access systems. But multi-domain where you have, you know, continuous and rapid integration of army, joint, coalition capabilities across all domains, you know, land, air, sea, cyber, and space is the future. And we're seeing it play out in Ukraine and the terrible, you know, Russia's aggressive, illegal, you know, operations in Ukraine. But we're seeing it play out this, and again, around the world, this, you know, it is the future. And so we had to develop, had to get in there and develop all new ways to think and fight in order to be successful. And I'm pretty proud we did that in the Pacific and it led to change.
0:43:34.3 General Robert B. Brown: And the key, implementing multi-domain operations and mainly through a thing called the multi-domain task force, which is a game changer. And land plays a key role because land is the most survivable of all terrain. And land does enable you when you work together and you leverage convergence and present multiple dilemmas to an enemy, you can stop adversaries that would do you harm. Yeah, I mean, I you were talking change and there's, it is difficult, but sometimes it's absolutely necessary if you're going to continue to be able to defend our nation and our way of life and world order, if you will, rules based international order. That's a lot, isn't it? Holy smokes.
0:44:17.1 Ian Faison: Well, it is, but I mean, I could listen to you talk for the next five hours. I don't necessarily like to ask about legacy per se, because you're still writing your legacy every day and you will continue for decades. So. But just as a moment in time, as sort of a snapshot in time with where you're at right now, how do you see sort of, your legacy from your time in that 38 career in the military and then what you wanna do going forward?
0:44:44.8 General Robert B. Brown: Well, yeah, I don't spend much time thinking about legacy either, honestly, but I am proud that I was, I think I was called coach in every team I led and they were amazing teams. And I'm proud of those teams we formed that did incredible things both in combat and in peacetime. And so to be a member of those teams, I think I'm incredibly proud of that. I was an individual who's a general now who worked for me as a young captain and then later as a major.
0:45:12.2 General Robert B. Brown: He recently introduced me, described me in a way that was the most flattering, that I'm grateful for. He said I was a modern day Fox Conner. And I thought, oh my God, first of all, I'm not sure. But I did pride myself in mentoring a lot, a lot of individuals I got I loved mentorship and developing leaders and there's a whole bunch of generals running around, a whole bunch of sergeants majors and I think I'm most proud of that and just even being the same sentence as a Fox Connor who mentored and developed Patton, Eisenhower, Bradley, it's like holy smokes. I don't know about that but I'm very proud of that and I find great, reward in that seeing them do so well and what it does for our Army and our nation.
0:45:53.9 General Robert B. Brown: I think going forward, it's the same thing. I wanna, I'm all about how do you develop others? And there's such amazing young men and women out there selflessly serving. And to be able to help them in a little bit is the most rewarding thing for me. And by far and to see it, the difference it will make. And you don't often see it right away. Sometimes it takes years, but it's incredibly rewarding. I think that's the thing I really enjoy the most. And that, and again, building those trusted teams of professionals, the thrive and ambiguity and chaos, that kind of became what the Army was looking at doing. I helped develop that. And so yeah, it's so yeah, I've got more work to do and I'm excited. And but definitely, that'll be the focus. How do you lead that to those folks better than before?
0:46:44.9 Ian Faison: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. For listeners, go to AUSA.org, AUSA.org. Check it out, find your local chapter. General Brown, any final thoughts, anything to plug?
0:46:57.3 General Robert B. Brown: Well, we're partnered with Association of Graduates, which is great. And so it's powerful that if you're a member of Association of Graduates, you're automatically a member of AUSA, which is really cool. And you can help in both. You can help wonderful West Point, an amazing institution that it is, which helps our Army. And then you can help our army. And so working together, we're really proud to be partnered with AOG. And of course, wonderful. What West Point does for our nation is incredible and leaders in and out of the military, obviously. And so we're really proud of that. So thanks very much, Ian. I really appreciate it. And thanks for what you're doing to help spread the word and these lessons out there and really appreciate it. And I just say, go Army. Let's keep this great season going and beat Navy.
0:47:43.4 Ian Faison: Beat Navy. That's right. Thanks.
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